How Much Do I Share When I Speak–if It Concerns Others?

What Do You Share When you Speak?My story is about learning how to say “God, you are enough.”

When I share my story, I do so to challenge women to open up their hands, and say, “God, you may have given me many blessings, but ultimately my life is based entirely, and solely, in You. You are my Source. You are enough.”

And I do that by sharing my story of loss–my son who passed away, my fiance who walked out.

Yet those losses only make sense in a wider context–namely, that of growing up with rejection because my father left. His actions made me who I am, and God ended up using it all for good. Yet I cannot tell my story without his.

When I asked on my Facebook Page a while ago what the biggest challenge is for people when it comes to speaking, a number mentioned, “figuring out how much to share”. That is a challenge, and it comes in two forms. Let’s look at both:

Sharing when your story involves others doing things wrong

That’s my case. And how do you share about things others have done that have hurt you? What if a large part of your story is abuse, for instance. Do you name your abuser? What if a large part of your story is your husband’s–or ex-husband’s–pornography addiction? Do you talk about it? It impacted you. It made you who you are today. But do you mention it?

Here are some thoughts to consider:

1. Are you in a reconciled relationship with that person?

If you are in a reconciled relationship, ask them if you can share. Say that you will put boundaries around it, if necessary–like you will only share that story out of state.

If you are not in a reconciled relationship, and it is unlikely to ever be reconciled, then I think, personally, that it is okay to share. That’s the conclusion I’ve come to in my own life. To not share means that I miss out on telling what God has done, and often through my story people in the audience are touched. You can do it tastefully, but I do believe that God wants to work in people’s lives, and if we keep things under wraps, we take away some of that opportunity.

At the same time:

2. Are there others who would be affected by this?

I spoke recently to a woman who had been in a horrid marriage where he had used porn and had sexually abused their children. When the abuse became known (the mom hadn’t known) she immediately left her husband, sued for custody, and got a restraining order.

She went through a horrible time of grieving and of trying to repair broken relationships. Now she wants to warn other women about the dangers of staying in a marriage when you know something is terribly wrong but you can’t put your finger on it. What should she share?

This is a harder case, because her story is intricately wound up in that of her children. While she does not owe her husband the right to privacy, she does owe it to her children. Talking and praying with them about what is all right to share, and when, would be crucial.

God still wants to use her story, and praying that He will open doors to minister, even if it’s not done on a large stage, is important. But it could be that with healing,  her children are willing, even eager, to have her share. Nevertheless, I think their feelings and needs are paramount here.

3. Can you share without sharing details?

Finally, at times there are opportunities to share without spelling everything out. So, for instance, if your uncle sexually abused you, but you are now reconciled, or your uncle’s children are prominent in the church and don’t want it known, you could talk about how as a child someone you trusted violated your trust. You don’t need to name the person.

You can, however, focus on the details of how this made you feel, which is really far more important than what was done. Remember, people in the audience will relate to you around feelings, not actions. It is very unlikely anyone in the audience will have gone through exactly what you did. But everyone in the audience understands betrayal, and shame, and fear. Talking about those emotions is far more important than the exact details of what was done.

Now let’s look at the second scenario about deciding what to share:

What I Share Can Affect My Reputation in other Circles

I’m the sex lady. I never meant to be the sex lady, but I became the sex lady with the publication of The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex. And my husband and I speak at marriage conferences, where we always do the sex talk.

That’s not really that big a deal–until the conference is in your home town, and your mother-in-law is in the audience. Do you really want your friends and family knowing all your funny and personal anecdotes (don’t worry, we don’t get too specific, but we are funny!). That’s just awkward.

And I’ve had to learn that awkwardness is one of the sacrifices that you make for God. It’s one of the things that we offer Him, as a sacrifice of praise. Because the speaker that touches people and that leads them more and more to God is the speaker who is real. When we cover up our foibles, and our fears, and our mistakes, we aren’t real. People can’t relate to a “perfect” version of Christianity. They relate to God doing something in the struggles of ordinary people. If you don’t share your real-ness, your ordinary-ness, you protect yourself at the expense of ministry.

Sometimes God wants to humble us.

At the same time, there are lines. Jessica Harris, for instance, wrote this on my Facebook Page:

I am a high school teacher who speaks about pornography addiction, so it’s hard to keep my ministry life and my school life separate! haha. The last thing I want my students to remember is that I was the teacher who used to watch porn.

I am blessed that my speaking engagements have been outside of my immediate circle of influence, so there’s no worries of ‘cross contamination.’ Some of my school parents know what I do and tell their kids, “Did you know we know a celebrity?” And I say, “No, no. To them I am just Miss Jessica.”

She wants to be real. She wants to minister to people. But she also is right in that this could cause awkwardness at her day job. In this case, keeping them as separate as possible is likely a good idea! And keeping your boss in the loop about what you are doing, and about the steps that you are taking to separate the two, is also likely a good idea, so that nothing would ever happen that would take your boss by surprise.

It is a difficult thing to decide how much to open up. Am I just seeking attention? Do I just want to hurt this person who hurt me? Am I trying to find my own healing through speaking, and am I hurting others in the process? These are all questions we need to honestly ask ourselves and pray through with God.

Ultimately, though, your story is your story. If your story leads people to God, then pray that God will open doors and show you how to share it effectively and with integrity, even if it means that you do offer him a sacrifice of your own pride.

Want to learn how to share your story the most effectively, so it leads people to Christ–and not just focusing on what you went through? My audio download, Crafting an Effective Signature Talk, teaches you how to do just that!

How Not to Get Jealous of Other Speakers

How Not to Feel Jealous in Your MinistryLast week I turned on Facebook, and found that a woman that I’ve been following, and who has been my peer and my friend, just got a new TV show.

I was happy for her. I really was.

But I have to admit that my first reaction was a gulp. And a sigh. And a twinge of jealousy.

I’ve been working hard! Why does she have a TV show and I don’t? Now, granted, I’m not even sure I would WANT a TV show, and I certainly haven’t been pursuing getting one, but that experience is quite common: when we are trying to grow our ministries, it’s hard not to compare ourselves to others who are doing something similar. And each time they succeed, it makes us feel that little bit more like failures.

The interesting thing is that we may even have succeeded in a key area–maybe we’re getting more bookings! But we hear someone who was just on the radio, and we think, “why aren’t I on the radio?” Suddenly our successes, even if we were happy about them, pale, because we’re looking at someone else.

I’m starting up my speaking training again, after a bit of a hiatus, and I thought one of the better places to begin was with this:

God has a plan for you. He has work that He has specifically prepared for you to do (Eph. 2:10). He has people that He has specifically put in your path because it is you He has designed to reach them.

God DOES have a plan for you.

So what is your role in all of this?

Listen to God. Be faithful with the gifts and blessings He has given you. If He’s given you money, invest in ministry. If He’s given you gifts, use them wisely. Don’t hide them. Be available. Serve Him.

But never, ever think that He is demanding a certain level of success from you. He is not angry if you haven’t progressed. He is not thinking “she shouldn’t be doing this.” He is happy when we try to spread His word!

That doesn’t mean He may not one day push you in a different direction. And some of us may only speak for a short period of our lives. But in God’s timing that is never wasted. He is using it.

Our focus, then, should always be on God and listening to Him, not on trying to attain some measure of success.

That doesn’t mean that we don’t aim to become more professional, or try to seek out better bookings. That’s part of being faithful with the gifts that He has given you. How will people hire us if we don’t get the word out? So, yes, we need to be learning about marketing and about being professional.

But there is no level of success that God says we must have in order to serve Him. And there is no level of success that says, “you have arrived. You’ve done good!” When we think there is, we’re measuring success in the world’s terms, and not in God’s terms.

I know it’s hard not to become jealous when other speakers seem to succeed so much more, and when other people get a ton of bookings and you just don’t. But that’s the time to go back to God and say, “is there something that you want me to learn in order to be a more effective speaker? Are there more risks you want me to take for you?” And if the answer is no, you’re perfectly okay.

There will ALWAYS be people who are more successful than us. Think of the most successful speaker you know: I am almost positive that she has a list a mile long of the things she should be doing to grow her influence and ministry, too. There’s always more we could be doing, and there always will be, until Christ returns. Until everybody has heard the message, and until everybody is completely transformed to look like Christ (Romans 8:29), there will always be more to do.

Think about it this way: Peter is so much better known than his brother Andrew. And yet if you read the Scriptures, you’ll find something interesting. The only times that Andrew is mentioned, he is bringing people to Jesus. That’s all he’s known for.

His ministry didn’t go down in history to the same extent that Peter’s did. Andrew didn’t preach on Pentecost and see 3000 saved; Peter did. But Andrew is still remembered today for bringing people to Jesus.

Lord, may that be true of us, too.

Want to hone your message so you’re sure you’re being effective in leading people to the foot of the cross? Crafting Your Signature Talk audio download takes you step by step through the process!

I’m Back–And I’d Like to Help You Build Your Speaking Ministry

Sheila Wray Gregoire speaking

Hello, everybody!

It’s been almost a year since I’ve posted in this blog, although lots of you have still been reading posts! I’m sorry about that. I’ve been busy with two book launches in 2012, and building up my marriage blog (I went from 10,000 monthly visitors to 350,000 monthly visitors last year), so my life has been a bit crazy.

But speaker training is a passion of mine, and so now that I’ve got things on autopilot a little bit more over there, I’d like to spend more time here, hopefully publishing a post or two every week on how to build your ministry, and be more effective at that ministry.

I already have quite the archives on this blog, but I’ve had a backlog of questions on Facebook I want to get to, like how do I get organized to build up a speaking ministry? I’m already busy, so I’m afraid to market in case I get too many requests. How do I figure out how much to share, when my story involves so many other people? Or just how can I get people to think of me as a speaker?

I’d love to tackle some of those coming up!

I thought first, though, that I’d let you in on some of the changes that have happened in my life, so you can also know where I’m coming from.

For years I’ve been doing the typical speaking ministry: you start with single night events, like outreaches, or women’s dinners at churches. You move on to do some weekend retreats. And then it grows from there, as you get bigger churches, and bigger retreats, and denominational conferences.

In 2008 I joined the team at Girls Night Out, hosted by World Vision, and that was a blessing because they did the booking! I’d do the same event and the same talk in different churches, but it was all coordinated for me. I felt really spoiled! But I fell in love with doing an “event”–a night that you bring to churches which looks pretty much the same, but is professionally done.

Girl Talk backdropThis last year my life has changed again. My book The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex came out with Zondervan, which is a major Christian publisher. My blog grew. And I decided it was time to create my own event, where I spoke about sex. And so this year I’ve concentrated on a very different kind of speaking. Instead of general inspiration speaking, I’ve done a targeted night.

In some ways I miss sharing my complete testimony, but in others I’m excited about the new opportunities coming my way.

But I’ve also learned this year, for the first time, that I really need to invest in myself. For years I’ve gotten by on minimal marketing, generating word of mouth when I speak (and I still absolutely believe that this is the best route to build your speaking ministry!) At some point, though, if you want to grow, you sometimes have to actually invest. And so I’ve hired people to help with booking, and I’m in the process of designing a backdrop and tablecloths and other accessories to make my whole night streamlined. This is really far out of my comfort zone–I HATE spending money on marketing (hence why I’ve always tried to teach you all to do it for free!). So I’ve had to open up my wallet and trust that God will bring the investment back.

So that’s where I’ve been. And I’m excited about the new phase in my life, but I also want to get back to helping others grow their ministries, because truthfully, there just aren’t enough women who are engaging and inspirational and speak well. So let’s learn together, and let’s turn the world on fire for Him!

As I launch forward and start writing this blog again, I’d love to know what you want to hear more about. So if you could answer this question for me in the comments, it would help me a great deal in planning future blog posts that will actually be helpful to you all:

The most frustrating thing about my speaking ministry is…….

Thank you all so much!

And if you want to learn how to get more bookings WITHOUT spending a fortune on marketing, my webinar How to Get Better Bookings can help!

How I Came to Peace with Giving the Same Talk Over and Over Again

Questioning Yourself When you Speak

It starts with the loathing.

I’ll be in the car, driving to a speaking engagement, and the negative thoughts will start.

Why are you doing this? You don’t have anything important to say. It’s all been said before! You don’t have anything new! You have no right to speak to these women.

Then I’ll arrive at the venue, talk to the chipper women all eager to hear what I have to say, give my talk, and listen to people praising it afterwards. I drive home convinced that I was doing what God wanted me to do–until the next speaking engagement when the loathing starts again.

This is actually quite common for speakers, but we rarely talk about it. We’re supposed to be perennially happy, always sure of ourselves, deep in prayer and knowing what it is that God wants us to say.

But can I be honest for a moment? Speaking is very nerve-wracking.

First, I’m a big believer in delivering the same, or similar talks and conference packages repeatedly. If you have honed a talk which tells your story well, which hits a nerve with people, and which prepares them to hear from God, why change it? And let’s face it: the more we deliver a certain talk, the better we get at it. We can speak without looking at our notes as often. We can figure out how to deliver an anecdote most effectively. We can tweak it to make it great.

But the problem is that as we tweak and talk and think, it starts to lose its freshness to us. We’ve heard it so many times, we start to wonder if there is anything important that we’re saying. We’re so familiar with the material that we figure everyone else is, too.

But they’re not! For most of the people in the audience, this is the first time they’ve thought about the issue the way that you’re framing it. It’s fresh to them.

So when you start to doubt your message, try this instead:

1. Pray about it

Ask God if this is still the message that you should be giving. Is it time to develop a new one, or is this still the one that speaks the most about your own journey and how that intersects with other people are experiencing?

2. Freshen up the Anecdotes

Because my “signature talk” is close to my heart, I’m speaking about things that God is also speaking to me about. And since my relationship with God is not static, but always changing, I often find that my talk changes over the years. I take out a story and add another one. I find a new Bible verse that says exactly what I’m thinking.

That’s okay! The talk doesn’t have to be word for word what you gave last time; in fact, it shouldn’t. It should be dynamic. But I don’t think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Our signature talk should tell our story, and our story, in essence, doesn’t change. The theme of your walk with God rarely changes. So don’t worry about changing the substance of your talk; just update it with new things He’s teaching you.

3. Rely on People’s Reactions, not Your Emotions

Judging your talk by your emotions before you give it is a lousy way to figure out your talk’s effectiveness. We’re always nervous and consumed with self-doubt before we speak. And let’s remember that we have an enemy who wants us to mess up and feel insecure.

Instead, listen to the feedback you’re getting. Are women still touched by what you have to share, or is their enthusiasm for your message dimming? If you got more positive reaction five years ago than you do today, it likely is time to change your signature talk. But if people are still being led to tears, or responding to an altar call, or telling you that “this was just what I needed to hear”, believe them. Don’t second guess them. They aren’t just being nice; they mean it. Let their words wash over you and comfort you.

4. Remember You’re a Professional

Professionals do things by rote. Professionals do what is expected, even if it’s not completely fun. Professionals do what they are hired to do. You were hired to give a certain talk. Don’t be embarrassed by it. Don’t second guess yourself. Just do it!

If you want some help in creating a Signature Talk that’s life changing, my audio download, Crafting a Signature Talk, is just the ticket! It goes step-by-step into how to craft a beautiful talk that will change hearts–and that you will be happy to deliver.

 

Should We Wait for God to Open Doors For Us To Speak?

I received this email recently, which is quite typical of the questions I often get:

I’ve done a lot of speaking at women’s events in my church and other local events, and have always been very well received. I’m comfortable leading and teaching women, often using stories from my own life, what God’s teaching me through the messes I’ve made, and just the challenges of everyday life. My kids are grown and I want to use my time and talents to minister, as you say on your website, strategically.

 

What’s holding me back is that I’m wondering if the Lord should confirm this desire through an opportunity or invitation, as He has in the past, or if I should move forward and start making things happen, myself? A mentor of mine, who has published a couple of books and speaks/ministers widely himself, once said that he has always allowed the Lord to open doors to ministry.

 

Waiting on the Lord for direction is foundational, but I also believe I’ll be called to account for the talents I’ve been entrusted with, however great or small they may be…would you have any insights to share with me on this?

Here’s my quick answer:

That’s a tough one, and I know where you’re coming from. I guess the way that I’d think about it is this:

If God has seriously given you a message to share, then He wants you to share it. And you can’t share it unless people know about you. So you have to get the word out.

Should God be solely responsible for getting the word out? If we leave it entirely to Him, then it’s as if we’re saying, “I don’t really want to participate with You in this, Lord. You have to do all the work, or else I won’t step out in faith.”

So you’re basically doing a Gideon thing, asking God to prove Himself. But if God has really called you, then He wants you to go forward.

God has opened many doors for me, but they have usually come after I have also stepped forward in faith that this is what God is calling me to. When I received a book contract, for instance, it was only after approaching an agent, writing a book proposal, and praying a lot. I didn’t wait for a publisher to come to me.

I understand people who say that God should open all doors, and that is the way that it works for some. But in my experience, we also should play a role. God wants us to step forward in faith, and if He has a message for you to share, He wants you to share it.

What do you think? Let’s talk!

What Does Trusting God with Marketing Look Like?

'Signs on the former Megabowl, Pershore Street, Birmingham - Wimpy - sign' photo (c) 2010, Elliott Brown - license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/I have a confession to make.

I’ve always been a wimp when it comes to trusting God with marketing.

You probably are, too. Most of us suffer from this illness. We sit back and say:

I trust God to grow my ministry.

How is that wimpy, you say? Well, let me illustrate by telling you a story.

I started my main marriage and parenting blog in March of 2008. I decided it was time to get on the blogging bandwagon if I wanted to build a platform for my writing in the area of marriage. And so I began to blog. Pretty soon I was getting around 200 readers a day. But then, about two years into blogging, I hit 400 readers a day. And I couldn’t budge it. Occasionally I’d get a big surge where I hit 700 readers, but that was it.

At the beginning of November, I attended a marketing conference with my agent. I asked, “how many readers do publishers want for a blog? What should our traffic be if we want our blog to be considered a good platform?” And the answer came back, “1000 a day. Or 30,000 a month.

30,000 a month? That was huge! I was excited when I hit 12,000. And I had a book coming out in March (The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex). I wanted to get up to that point by March. But how could I do that? That’s more than doubling my traffic in just three months, when I had spent years trying to get my traffic going. I had guest posted. I had left comments at other people’s blogs. I had participated in link ups. And nothing.

But I decided to try something radical. I decided to pray for actual numbers. So I said,

God, I need 30,000 people by the end of February. I don’t know how you’re going to do it, but I pray that you will bring me that traffic.

In December I was discovered by reddit, a bookmarking site. I had 60,000 visitors in December.

But that was a fluke, I thought. I’ll never hit anything like that again!

Here’s my traffic since then:

Now, if you’re trying to simply get speaking engagements, you absolutely do not need 1000 people on your website a day. I needed it because I was trying to build a platform to sell a book, and that’s something different.

But here’s what I learned, and this is what I really want to impress on people: Sometimes we mistake the wimpy for the godly.

For instance, which is more godly to say?

I put my marketing entirely in your hands, God. I know you have my ministry in Your hands, and so I trust you.

Or,

God, I believe you have brought me to this place. I believe that You want me to grow my ministry. So I pray that you will bring people to me, and that you will give me opportunities to reach more and more. I pray that I will have (3 retreats this year, 2 paying engagements, a book contract, whatever it may be for you), and if that’s not Your will, reveal it to me soon, because I want to spend the time that you have given me in the best way for Your kingdom.

You see, I prayed the first prayer for years. But what I was really doing was giving God an out. I was saying, “If you want me to grow, I will, but if You don’t, I won’t.” It wasn’t a prayer of faith; it was a cop out.

And when we pray like that, I think we’re less likely to actively market ourselves, because we figure that God should do it for us. And if God doesn’t, then it wasn’t meant to be. But what if it was meant to be, but God needed you to wrestle through, and trust Him, and step forward?

I think it demonstrates far more trust in God if we step forward in faith in our ministry, believing that God has brought us to this point, than if we hide in the back, and say, “God will make it happen if He wants it to.”

This is not a “name it and claim it” thing I mean, because I don’t believe in “name it and claim it”. But I do believe that if God has called you to something, He wants you to do it. He wants you to be a full participant. He wants you to believe in that calling. And if He hasn’t called you, then it’s good to wrestle that through and figure that out anyway.

Lately I’ve been so busy with the release of my book that I haven’t posted very much, and I’m sorry about that. I’m hoping to get back to things soon. But I thought that I would leave you with these things that have been spilling around my head, and ask you: what do you think? What does trusting God with marketing mean to you?

What Should a Speaker’s Boundaries Be?

'Are we done yet?--Daily Image 2011--January 13' photo (c) 2011, rochelle hartman - license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/

I was once asked to speak at a retreat which was 8 months away. Between the date that I was asked and that particular retreat I had four other retreats and numerous one-time events. I was also writing a weekly column, homeschooling my kids, and volunteering at my own local church.

The way that I handled my speaking engagements was I tried, as much as possible, to use the same talks or the same retreat packages to minimize prep time, and I would start getting ready for one after the previous one was done. So this particular retreat, probably in mid-May (I don’t remember now) I planned to start thinking about in early May.

But in November I received an email. Can I send all my notes and my handouts? And can I give feedback on the brochure and the graphics?

In December they wanted answers to whether I felt the schedule was good, so could I come up with my ideal schedule.

In January they wanted to meet for a prayer meeting with all of the committee members. Could I come for a three hour prayer meeting (this would have required a two hour drive one way).

And on and on it went. I was starting to get an email a week with questions.

Finally I had to put a stop to it. I told them I could not attend the prayer meeting, because I had other speaking engagements, and I had other responsibilities. But they could rest assured that if they covered me in prayer, I would be ready when the time came.

I received a Twitter message from a new speaker recently asking about a similar scenario. She had promised to teach a series of studies for free to a church, but the church wanted her to come and attend the service beforehand so that she could get a feel for the type of background these women came from. But the church is 1 1/2 hours from where she lives. And they would not be providing transportation.

These types of things are really quite common when we start speaking, and you’ll find that people will infringe on your time as much as they can. They will think:

  • You cannot do a good job unless you know them intimately
  • You must meet to pray with them or the prayer may not be effective
  • They must know everything you are going to say ahead of time or the evening won’t be seamless
  • They must get to know you as a person first

None of these things is true, by the way; but let me try to explain what is behind the urge to know you.

When churches run events, they are often very nervous. For the person running the event, this is probably her primary focus for months. This is all she is thinking about. And so she assumes that everyone else is, too.

And if you are not a seasoned speaker, she may assume that she has to keep a careful watch over you or everything will be horrible.

Ironically, I usually run into much more problems in this regard with smaller churches and smaller events than I do with large churches with big events. Large churches are used to putting on events, and know that things will go smoothly. They are used to working with seasoned speakers and are used to people being able to come in, do a good job, and leave. Small churches, which may be doing something new for the first time, are often much more nervous and much more demanding, especially when you are doing it for free, or for very little money. If you’re not charging much, then it’s a “labour of love”, and you should love it as much as they do. And so you should sacrifice more of your time!

That, however, does not work. If you allow your boundaries to be really stretched, then you will find yourself exhausted, guilty about the home life you are leaving behind and the other duties you are neglected, and often a little bitter when you actually do the engagement.

So how do you deal with these things? I prepare a letter which I send when a church books me, that says something like this:

Between now and the event, Sheila will do her utmost to prepare her heart and her mind to speak to your group. She will ask God for guidance during her daily devotions; she will pray specifically for this event and for the music team and others who will be ministering with her; and she will endeavour to tailor her talks to meet your needs.

Should you need specific information from Sheila, feel free to email, and she will try to get back to you within a few business days. However, her schedule is very full, with both family commitments, her own church commitments, and other speaking engagements, and so if other planning meetings are necessary, you can contact her about her fees for meetings outside of the agreed upon date.

And that usually does the trick!

I do believe that as speakers we have a responsibility to pray and prepare ourselves; but part of preparing ourselves is caring for our families and tending to our own personal responsibilities. So you cannot let a speaking engagement make undue demands on you. And what might some of those demands be?

  • Speaking too much on the phone
  • Driving for meetings when time is an issue, and mileage isn’t being reimbursed
  • Asking for a complete outline of everything you will be saying more than two weeks before the event (even then, I rarely give one in case God changes my mind; I just give the main Bible passages and main points).
  • Too frequent emails

The best way to deal with this is to reassure people that you have spoken before; that God always has a way of making everything tie together, and that you will be praying for the event. Then spell out your policy in writing, and that usually takes care of things.

Now it’s your turn: Have you ever had unreasonable demands on you before a speaking engagement? How did you handle it?

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 743 other followers